Stop Making Exercise So Complicated
June 18th, 2010
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by Mike T Nelson · Filed Under: athletic performance · pain
Stop Making Exercise So Complicated
“Start by doing the necessary, then the possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible” -St. Francis of Assisi
I smell a rant coming on. You are warned. The last time this happened the carnage was great. I am sure there are certain people that are convinced I am nuts as they shake their head and mutter “he just does not get it”
Truth be told I am not concerned. I am not out to personally attack anyone, but I can’t control how others interpret things. I love open discussion and that is the main reason for this blog as I love the interaction. The more we discuss and test things out, the more progress ALL of us make.
Here is my premise.
We are making things WAAAAY too complicated in regards to exercise.
If I move this fast enough, I think I can fly!!
Everything is funnier with a British accent!
History
Trust me, I am not exempt from this myself. I’ve spent many years convinced that I needed to learn more. Learning more is never a bad idea in and of itself, but ACTION must be applied. I think this is where many college programs go awry. Tons of data, but very little application. I should know a few things about college from being in for over 15 years, teaching classes and running labs too.
I’ve spent time learning about all sorts in the fitness area that I rarely, if ever, use today.
I’ve learned about nerve glides (nerve flossing), motor point work, soft tissue/ hands on work (again, done in proper context), occulomotor work (eye movements), joint mobility, vision work like supression, tracking, peripherial work, esophoria and exophoria, blah blah blah. I did pass on the Body Blade course though.
There may be a few cases where it is needed, but for the most part it is not needed.
I would bin static stretching, isometrics, foam rollers, painful soft tissue work, and treadmills at the bottom of the list of things I would rarely ever do or have performed on athletes. Not entirely worthless in my experience, but very close.
But I Do Those Things and I Get Results!
Can any of the above get a result? Sure! You can do almost anything (especially in regards to pain) to get a change. If you look into pain studies, the variance you find is massive. Even in training studies, the response is across the board most times when you look at the actual data, not just the averages.
Anyone that has done real research will tell you that most data never looks close to perfect.
Example Time: Painful Soft Tissue Work
If you come in to see me and complain about a left shoulder being painful when you raise your arm out to the side. I could then take my cow brander, get it all nice and hot (we need to make sure it is sterile), and brand XHP (self promotion) on your right arm. I can gaurantee that your LEFT arm will not hurt as bad.
Did I do anything to make your left arm? Nope? Did I drammatically alter the pain signal in your brain? Yep!
I think at a base level, painful soft tissue work modifies the signal in the brain. Creating pain somewhere else to decrease pain seems like a really bad idea.
Yes, I understand the proposed mechanism(s) involved in painful soft tissue work and no I don’t do lots of hands on work, but the whole concept just sounds bad. Wait, I have an idea. Let’s get an instrument and use that to do more damage. Brillant!
Graston Tools or Works of the Devil?
I paid someone a ton of money to do ART on my psoas when I ripped it years ago. For those who don’t know where the psoas muscle is, its deep in the inner hip (inguinal) area. To get to it, he had to press through lots of other tissue to pin the psoas as I extended my hip.
Wow, that hurt like all hell. I was sweating like like a cat in a Korean deli.
Did I think that it helped? Yep! Why? The pain was different and he told me this was a “good pain” plus I paid him a crap ton of money for 10 minutes work and everyone else told me ART was the bomb.
Would I do it now? Heck no. I am not paying someone to put me into pain, when I am trying to get OUT of pain.
Back on Track
So lots of stuff can “work” for various reasons.
My proposed solution from Adam T Glass when he was describing his training methods:
“Simply move where I can, pursue what tests best, and continue to train a variety of movements with a variety of tools.”
We will come back to this very soon.
More Tools!
I hear that “we need more tools in the ole toolbox”
“If you have a square peg and try to put it into a round hole, it will not work.”
“Sometimes it is a screw and you need a screwdriver and not a hammer”
The solution must be in here somewhere
Some (my hand is up for doing this in the past for sure) look to create a big a$$ toolbox thinking that it is the solution to their problems.
If you have 56 tools in there, how good are you going to be be with ALL of them?
Even if you do this 40-80 hours a week, I would argue that their are tools you will still not be very good at due to lack of practice.
The solution is to learn more (add tools) and spend even more time practicing. At some point, this is completely unsaleable.
What If There Was a Universal Tool?
Active Range of Motion
It follows that good movement allows good movement.
If you watch bench press Billy really cranking on that last rep as his face turns bright red, blows a vessel in his left eye as his arms shake when he really puts in that huge amount of effort (because effort makes you strong, right?) to make that last rep.
How good will his movement be after that? Correct, piss poor.
So the opposite is true. Nice fluid movement that is correct for YOUR body should allow better movement (as measured by a range of motion test in Grip n Rip DVDs).
Back to Adam’s quote. Test your movement for profound changes
When I was talking to Frankie on the phone the other day, he mentioned that the range of motion test is the leatherman of the fitness industry.
It Is All Connected
Can testing movement result in improvement in other systems of the body?
Yes!
I’ve made more visual improvements by focusing on good movement (testing well) and then slowly adding in visual components (KB juggling) than any past visual work I have ever done.
Just one simple example for those that thing it is all unrelated. Movement is a highly orchestrated event, BUT that does NOT mean we need to TRAIN that way to see amazing benefits.
My Droid phone is complex, but just hit an icon and it does crazy stuff. The INTERFACE is simple. I just punched an icon.
The exercise INTERFACE is simple–test it, do what tests well within your limits moving towards your goals.
Summary
I think most fitness professionals (and myself in the past) are making the whole exercise thing waaaaay too complex. Start simple and only get as complex as needed. Most times, you don’t need to get too complicated
What to do
1) Baseline range of motion test
2) Perform an exercise
3) Re-test range of motion
4) Better? Good, do that one
5) Worse? Skip it for today and test another one
If you keep working exercises that test well with lower amounts of tension, you will see MASSIVE changes.
Comments?
Thoughts? Let me know!
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
PS
If you want to hear first hand how this is possible, listen to Frank’s story below for FREE!
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It isn’t a British accent. New Zealand I think
I’m with Chris ^.
The Accent thing is the only dispute I have.
Seeing this with my bodyweight gymnastics work and flexibility. Do what’s good, hate what isn’t.
I’m all for un-complicating exercise.
But I think Gym movement has gone too far.
The body is either getting better or worse.
You are either winning or failing.
The body does not lie.
These are all seductive/simplistic ideas. Unfortunately, in my experience, they are not true for everybody, all of the time.
And that is my concern …
I prefer my concepts to be as accurate as possible … Sure, as simple as they can be. And only as complicated as they have to be. But they must reflect reality as closely as possible. And I think some of Gym Movements ideas (particularly those mentioned above) fail this test.
I have made tremendous gains utilizing some of the ideas of gym movement … but I still train within a framework that takes into account my concerns …
Just because I’m ‘getting better’ in the short term, I will still be cautious about making claims about the long term … Perpetual progress? I don’t know. Ongoing progress for six months … Absolutely.
I’m more interested in seeing how strong/fit you guys are in ten years than any short term results you are getting.
I started training martial arts 2 decades ago alongside a dozen other dudes who were my friends … ALL of them got stronger and fitter than me during the first year of training … NONE of them are stronger and fitter than me now. In fact, five of them are self-professed ‘fat lazy bastards’ and only two of them are still training. If you measured their progress over that first year, they were ‘winning’ and I was ‘failing’ … And yet here we are two decades later … I’m 40, still training, and still loving it.
Do I believe it’s possible that something I’m doing in my training THAT IS TESTING WELL NOW can come back and bite me on the arse later … yes. IMHO there are so many options available to the human body for implementing ALL movements, and so many factors that effect said implementation, that I’m not so naive as to believe my body will always chose the option that provides the greatest long term benefit.
(And consequently, I DO regularly use both performance tests and the FMS to provide external guidance to help assess, correct and guide the general direction of my programming).
I have seen first hand, a person getting ‘better’ at exercise in the short term and then dropping dead of a brain tumor in the long term … Did he take his bench from 70kg to 125kg? Yes. Did he go from 3 pullups to 15? Yes. Despite his body ‘getting better’ at strength and fitness … was his body also able to CONCURRENTLY ‘get worse’ at the same time, via a brain tumor that refused to stop growing? Yes.
Whilst this is an extreme example … there are far more ‘garden variety’ examples of the human body improving in the short term, and yet causing itself problems over the long term. Teaching musicians is where I’ve got my own experience of this phenomena.
The win/fail mentality suits the classic athletic mind-set … Whilst useful for the right sub-set of people, it can (and has) been very destructive amongst other groups of people with different motivational drives and cultural backgrounds.
As far as my belief that the body lies to you … I don’t know what to tell you. Not only have I had decades of real-world examples of this phenomena it is also extensively dealt with academically within neuroscience, evolutionary biology, psychology and sociology.
Yes, I have other issues with Gym Movement …
I don’t like the marketing.
I get a sense of arrogance amongst some of the leaders, notably Frankie & Adam (it may well be valid—I have no idea—but I don’t like it). Frankie is probably smarter than me, and Adam is definitely stronger than me, so they have my respect on that score, but some of the content they’ve released publicly give the impression they have little to no respect for the way other systems train. I may well be misguided on this … but that is the impression I’ve got … and I’m not the only one.
At any rate, I don’t want to get into an ongoing argument. And I have zero intention of responding to anyone who takes issue with what I’m saying. But I wanted to at least share my opinion in the hopes it may provide some feedback you might find useful.
Obviously, the things I’ve raised are all just my opinions… And I have NEVER pretended to portray my opinions as anything more than the honest expression of a reasonably thoughtful AMATEUR fitness enthusiast.
My intention is not to offend you. I’ve enjoyed getting to know you as a person, and I’ve learned a lot from your blog. Some of my negative (albeit honest) responses to some of the Gym Movement content has all ready got me de-friended on facebook by Frankie and Adam. I hope this post doesn’t cause the same response from you. All though I understand if it does.
To be honest, politics in training DOES NOT INTEREST ME … I’m ALL about getting up every day and playing in my home gym. The ONLY reasons I’m commenting on this topic is because I think you deserve an honest appraisal of my experience with Gym Movement and I didn’t want other people to think I agree with everything you guys are talking about (and the ways some of you are going about it) … And silence tends to give people that impression.
Despite my concerns over Gym Movement, I will continue to be honest about my results using it (very positive), and give credit/promote those who introduced me to it.
Cheers.
Mike and Kira-
Nice write-up and I like the counter point Kira! Thank you to both of you for the time and effort! We use a lot of pain/gate-theory type of methods that mess with the pain signals in our world. A couple other physiologic things go on with it but I posted some good articles from one person in our world on how acupuncture works.
mase
ps…this is my world, one of the “scientific guys in our industry”
http://www.elotus.org/lotus_2010/downloads/articles/2010/article_09_0223_Donald_Final.html
http://www.elotus.org/lotus_2010/downloads/articles/2010/article_18_0617_Donald_Final.html
Kira!
Holy novel man! Thanks for taking so much time to write this up—much appreciated!
Ok, you will have to help me out on this one as I am having a bit of a hard time wrapping my head around it.
So you are having the best gains of your life, with no pain (please correct me if I stated that wrong) at age 40 than EVER before; BUT you are concerned what will happen 10 years from now? Why would you be so concerned?
We are just talking about movement here, not even a supplement or a drug! Just optimal movement for YOUR body EACH time. Why would positive adaptations NOT happen from that?
I am missing how this relates to cancer?
Testing ONLY informs you on what is good on that day. You still have to decide what you want to do and what the long term effects of that may be. That is always your choice.
I have a hard time believing this time of training to be destructive, I would argue quite the opposite. You are stopping a set at the first sign of altered tension and or breathing. When do most people stop a set? Well beyond that. What happens over time–they get pain and break.
If you have no pain at all currently, the body is saying–all systems good to go for movement! If you get pain–don’t do that movement.
If you don’t like the Marketing, that is fine. I don’t think anything that has been said is not correct though? It is entirely possible to hit a PR every day!
If you have an issue with Adam or Frankie, talk to them about it. I personally don’t keep track of the people I have potentially offended, nor do I concern myself with them. I do appreciate your open and honest feedback and your comment is still posted above; so keep stopping back to learn more.
I don’t think there is a downside to setting PRs every day in the gym, doing things that you have NEVER done before, with little to no pain, and write your own optimal exercise programs. If someone told me how to do this 5 years ago, I would plunk down a wad of cash and say “SHOW ME”
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Right on Darryl!
Mike T Nelson
Thanks Chris and Kevin—I listened to it again and I would agree with that. I still have a hard time telling them apart.
Much appreciate the comments!
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Mase,
Good stuff! Thanks for the references! I noticed the first reference was a bit older, is that theory still valid?
Do you use the Neuromatrix of Pain theory now vs gate theory?
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Don’t hate the player of the Bodyblade. America is the land of short attention spans.That’s why there’s BodyBlades and KettleWurst DVD’s.
I try to test every exercise I do and he one’s I always liked before I knew about testing Always test Awesome for me.
Good Stuff Mike.
OK, I’ve been following you for a while now and I have one really basic problem with the whole method…how can one range of motion test tell you if it’s good for your body or not. To me this seems absolutely absurd.
And what happens when one random test of ROM tests well after an exercise and another random test of a different ROM tests badly. Example: I test my hamstring flexibility and pec flexibility before I do some rows. I do the rows. Retest, and the hamstring tests badly where as the pec tests well. Then what??
And that’s even a side argument. I mean you could start a whole new argument on why a ROM test should be used as the “gold standard test”. I mean why not use a vertical jump as your test??…or anything else for that matter. I mean what science suggests that your active ROM should dictate what you do that day?!?!??….or what version of an exercise you should do???
I want this method of training to make sense to me…I really do. It’s so beautifully simplistic that it could easily be adapted to, well literally everybody. But it just requires me to take so many blind leaps of faith when it comes to the scientific underpinnings that I simply don’t buy it.
Cian,
Don’t over complicate things, just test it out.
In my experience, the various ROM tests and different strength tests have all correlated with eachother. I got a cheap ass dynamometer to help me in the testing of the method. Set a baseline for your one or two tests, do the movement, retest tests and they should correlate; if they don’t, something went wrong (usually on your part). Why is the ROM test so common as the standard? Because it’s the easiest and fastest. Vertical jump height would work too.
The ’science’ that I have seen has been more anecdotal than anything else, but if you ask me it makes sense. Less tension and therefore greater ROM is a good thing for our bodies, right? Well if you do something negative for your body, do you think it will relax more or tense up? Tense up obviously, and therefore decrease ROM. Excessive tension equals less fluid motion and less focus for strength, meaning that the strength, and jump tests would probably also test poorly.
Just relax, think it through, and most importantly: Try IT.
Kevin,
Ok, well we have different experiences with this then. I have not found that various ROM tests correlate with each other post the trial exercise, and it’s unlikely that it’s down to my part.
Your second paragraph asks the question…
“Less tension and therefore greater ROM is a good thing for our bodies, right?”
I would only say “right” in certain situations and with certain clients.
To break down your question a little more I would say that greater active ROM is almost always a more desirable thing. However, I would completely disagree with less tension being a good thing in all cases. Any athlete who is explosive is tight. This is not a bad thing at all. For example, if you take a population who are not tense, like people who practice yoga on a regular basis, and get them to sprint they will have poor times. Of course there is the exception, but as a population this is true.
So if you were an athlete who wanted to become more explosive why would you only practice exercises that make you less tense?
Finally you mention that excessive tension equals less fluid motion…well yes….excessive anything is bad. But that does not mean that high levels are bad in all situations.
Wow! Excellent, Mike. You developed that whole thesis in a very thoughtful, sensible, logical manner. Thank you. I have become a devotee over the last month or so and look forward to a long and rewarding relationship, and spreading the word to anyone who can see light. The combination of science, experience and just plain good sense which you present is enlightening. Thank you for having the patience to, one step at a time, deconstruct the above…..uh, the above. Such patience! I’ve got a bit to learn there and seeing it modeled that way was most instructive. How do you do THAT? Your a better man than I, Gunga Din. lol. Thanks again and Rock Om.
“Holy novel man! Thanks for taking so much time to write this up—much appreciated!”
Sorry about that. I tend to write as I think, and it usually ends up long-winded.
“Ok, you will have to help me out on this one as I am having a bit of a hard time wrapping my head around it.
So you are having the best gains of your life, with no pain (please correct me if I stated that wrong) at age 40 than EVER before; BUT you are concerned what will happen 10 years from now? Why would you be so concerned?”
My main concern with strength and fitness is longevity. Not only am I concerned about 10 years from now … I’m also concerned about 30 years from now (and, God-willing, 50 years from now).
In fact, IMHO it is this lack of attention to longevity that makes many fitness programs next to worthless. As I mentioned, many of my martial arts friends I started training with years ago got strong, got fit and got skilled (and a lot quicker than I did!) … but eventually they got bored/injured/whatever and stopped training …
What use is being strong and fit for a few years? IMO, not much in the overall scheme of things. But that’s just me. I sincerely want to be training right up until the day I die … and preferably many years from now.
As far as ‘the best gains of my life’ … That’s correct but a little mis-leading. I got interested in powerlifting about a year and a half ago … I’ve never been interested in trying to lift over 200kg before. So yes, I have definitely made the best maximal strength gains in my life over the last six months. NO QUESTION. And I did it using Gym Movement concepts and protocols. But, to be fair, I hadn’t tried to get this strong in the past.
And also, my main training partner made similar gains in the same time span, utilizing a standard (non-biofeedback) training program (yes he grunted and groaned a lot more than I did, and he’s eighteen years younger … but he still made the same gains … We’re both equal on the deadlift, I got a little stronger on the squat, and he got a little stronger on the bench.)
“I am missing how this relates to cancer?”
The body can ‘get better’ in one area, whilst simultaneously ‘get worse’ in another. That’s the only point I was making. I get the impression you guys seem to be saying the body can only get better or worse … I think that’s rubbish. The body is not a monolithic entity. It is quite capable of ‘getting better’ in one area, ’staying the same’ in another, and ‘getting worse’ in yet another.
“If you have no pain at all currently, the body is saying–all systems good to go for movement! If you get pain–don’t do that movement.”
No. Having or not having pain doesn’t necessarily correlate with the body systems being ‘good to go’ at all. Habituated bad-movement patterns are often pain free (in fact, they are often the postures and movement strategies that FEEL the least painful). And these ’short term’ movement solutions can be pain free for many years … and then one day you break.
If I had a buck for every guitar player I’ve known who had ‘no pain’ FOR YEARS whilst playing hunched over their guitar and who eventually got serious back problems in their late thirties … I’d be a rich man.
What? A particular movement, done repetitively, without pain, for years, can cause serious injuries a decade/s later? And dramatically effect the quality of the remainder of their lives? Unfortunately, yes.
I’m concerned that biofeedback takes place within bodies that often have many less-than-optimal, habituated movement strategies, that may skew accurate proprioception, pain-perception, and even basic cognitive awareness. And this mis-information can lead to various movement choices, that over time, may lead to long term problems. And, more importantly, because of this mis-information, these long term problems, simply can’t be foreseen in the short term.
In basic terms … IMHO biofeedback training needs to be regularly checked against an external ‘human-shaped’ measure … Are the exercise choices we make, under the guidance of our biofeedback, actually making us more ‘human shaped’? Are our slouches getting less pronounced? Are our hip mobility issues improving? Are our excessive left/right dominant issues sorting themselves out?
Increased PRs alone, don’t show the quality of the neuro-muscular coordinative strategies used to achieve them.
From where I’m standing, adding an external screen/test every few months would be both simple to implement and prudent.
“If you don’t like the Marketing, that is fine. I don’t think anything that has been said is not correct though? It is entirely possible to hit a PR every day!”
Yes, this is just a personal problem I have with the kind of marketing you guys are choosing to use … I’m not suggesting you are lying.
“If you have an issue with Adam or Frankie, talk to them about it. I personally don’t keep track of the people I have potentially offended, nor do I concern myself with them.”
It’s okay. I took issue with one of Adam’s posts. I responded. He and Frankie didn’t like my response … It happens.
Hope that answered your concerns.
I read a lot of fitness blogs and Mike’s here is a recent addition to my bookmarks. I’m several weeks into testing the usual workouts I do. They always test well so I guess I’ll just keep doing them. One day I tweaked my back doing squats. I tested afterwards and my ROM lost about 8 inches. Interesting, though I don’t know what it means.
I’ve passed on GripNrip since I’ve little interest in gripping and ripping stuff, and kbells. Maybe it’s more than that, but, for me, it’s too pricey to find out. I’ve listened to the Frankie F. interview. I kept waiting for Mike to ask him how he first noticed his ROM improving with his activities and why he thought they correlated.
Hey Mike:
All I can say is, “Yep! You did it again!” LOL! I am probably one of the older guys that follows and/or posts. I find it intriguing to read the about the potential for future movement/finess issues while merely “moving.” As a former professional racehorse jockey, turned professional desk jockey, I can unequivocably say, “not moveing will create unprecedented movement issues later.” As professional racehorse jockey I was skinny, wiry and really, really strong! However, I experienced my share of bumps and tumbles — “no problem” until I became a professional desk jockey…things suddenly change, not the least of which was my single digit body fat! LOL! After trying to recapture my strength and single digit body fat via the typical bodybuilding routine, I found myself more injured than ever. It has been a process (as you know personally) to regain what was lost by mis-use, dis-use, and abuse. However, I intuitively knew I was missing something and most of my progress has been the result of intuitively learning to listen to my body. I love the way “intuition” is defined by Gym Movement as informed sensations. Yep, I may keel over with a brain tumor sometime in the future, but I certainly don’t dwell on that — in the meantime, I will continue my quest of better movement skills. Heck, I must be doing something right (and with the help of others), as I move better and am stronger now than 20 years ago…yep! And I am getting close to that single digit body fat again! Like that really matters anymore! LOL!
Cian,
I’ll test out doing the various ROM tests and checking their correlations over my next couple workouts. The ones I use are the toe touch, frontal arm raise, and lateral arm raise.
Remember, the tension ROM statement is only my opinion. But in regards to an individuals body’s going into a more relaxed state do to a certain type of exercise, I have to disagree. IMHO, using the minimum effective tension in our lives is desirable for quality of life. Tension is a good thing, and comes in handy when dealing with explosive moves, but not any extra tension then needed to complete the move. An explosive athlete is tense, at the right times. What makes a move explosive, or fast and powerful, is the combination of relaxation and tension of muscles. You whip your fist out during a punch with a completely relaxed arm, and then tense it at the last second to connect your body and deliver a powerful explosive punch. F = MA. Minimum effective tension = fluid powerful motion and is greater than using effective tension. I wasn’t saying complete relaxation is the way to go.
You’re thinking more along the lines of Tai Chi when you say individuals that have the goal of complete relaxation of movement. Yogi’s use tension, the great yogis use the minimum effective tension to hold the poses. Think of head stands and some of the other hand balances or single leg balances yogis do, tension is required, and used just enough so that the individual can hold the pose longer and/or with more ease.
I’m not sure if you were trying to say that sprinting is a tense action, but if you were I’m going to have to disagree. Using more than the needed amount of tension for the sprint will surely slow an individuals legs down, tension at the right times during the movement is a great thing, but tension throughout is a bad. Take note that the a world wide difference between any high level athlete and a average individual is the fact that the athlete can actively relax their muscles 800% more than the average individual. IMO a sprinter who added yoga into their routine would most likely improve their times. Why? One reason is they would achieve greater control and focus on breathing. Another reason is the required body awareness gained from the practice.
Lastly, I would say that high levels of tension are ok, that is, if the movement calls for the need of that much tension. Think of Adam’s card tearing and BUP progress. Did excessive tension added to the greater than normal call for tension in the movements help any? No, they slowed him and his progress down. Now he rips with an even greater speed and BUP heavier and more fluidly than before.
I’m off to workout, I’ll do the toe touch and lateral arm raise for my ROM tests and get back when I answer your next reply.
Great stuff everyone and awesome comments!! SWEET!
I am swamped today and running behind, but I will on tomorrow to reply to the questions.
Awesome discussion! Happy Father’s Day to all of the fathers.
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
For me complex and simple are not the primary considerations. Persistence is the primary factor and persisting without getting hurt and remaining motivated to keep improving in some way is the lifelong challenge. Not everyone is singlemindedly focused on strength. People often go through many different phases over the years, sometimes focusing on strength, sometimes on skills, sometimes trying to deal with pain and recover from past injuries, and sometimes just enjoying the ride. This isn’t periodization I’m talking about, it’s life.
My philosophy is that if you understand the larger concept of feedback, then the rest of training flows from that. Feedback in the largest sense means trying different things that make sense and paying attention with great acuity to the results you’re getting relative to your goals.
You have a sense of where you want to be going, you make your best guess at a method that will take you there, and you experiment and notice your results along the way. Gradually you refine both your objectives and your tactics. People are motivated by different things, have very different goals, and respond to different things at different times. Each of us ultimately takes responsibility for our own progress and troubleshooting our own challenges.
The value of experts is to provide training ideas to experiment with, progressions to help approach goals without injury, non-destructive ways of measuring progress, and ideas for troubleshooting problems and refining skills. But it is in each of us to figure out what we want to accomplish and absorb the expert knowledge that works for us.
Sorry, I’m not as knowledgeable at some of these methods as others here, these are just the general principles that I’ve found to be of greatest value over the years, even as specific machines, devices, and training theories have come and gone. For me the larger principle of feedback is the simplest and most fundamental training principle I’ve come across. It leads your to become smarter over time as to what short term goals make sense, what things to try, and how to tell if you are getting what you need.
Hi there Joe!
You are correct, the Fitness land in the US is one crazy place, that is for sure! I hear ya on the KettleWorx (I like KettleWurst too) are scary!
Awesome to hear you are testing your exercises–keep us updated!
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Thanks for all the kinds word Gene, I am blushing!
Yes, please pass along the good word to all. It is up to us to stop the spread of crap science and get as many people more PRs (personal records) as possible.
I look forward to your comments in the future!
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Cian and Kevin,
Cian, thanks for the great post and asking questions—awesome! We like questions since they lead to better answers.
I would agree with Kevin. Keep in mind that the active ROM is NOT a stretch.
When you do a forward flex (forward bend/toe touch) I instruct athletes to just melt down to the floor and stop where they feel ANY tension. Most can force it several more inches, but that would be a stretch.
Each one you test will find has a different baseline and some may show more change than others. It is the CHANGE that we are interested (better or worse ROM).
I would agree with Kevin that high level athletes have a much more balanced tension/relaxation.
Watch Olympic swimmers on the platform before a race—big bags of fluid. The gun goes off an instant appropriate tension as they shoot off into the pool.
Watch old films of the Russians doing Olympic lifting. They would walk out to the platform like they were asleep and then out of nowhere lift monster weights. Very efficient movement–that is the goal.
The next step now is to try it and let us know what you find out! I think you will be surprised.
Thanks for the great explanations Kevin!!! Awesome!
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Kira,
Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, people can make progress on a non biofeedback based program. Many many have shown that to be true, but I would argue that the cost/benefit ratio is a bit skewed on other programs. The long term cost of always pushing harder and harder, adding more tension and messed up breathing is not going to be good. It may not happen this week, month or year, but it will add up.
Most on standard programs are not getting a PR everyday either. I am sure some are, but from the people I have worked with, all of them are getting a PR every day.
Long Term
Not sure what to tell you on this. The most long term data we have is myself, since I started it 2.5 years ago. While an n=1, I can lift more today than ever before both in the gym and in competition, my visionl is the best ever (had complete suppression of my right eye), I have virtually no pain, am at my heaviest weight ever, I learn MUCH faster now, and move better than ever before. Of course there are many that lift much more than I do, but my comparison is against myself only.
If this is not the best way, what do you propose if the best way for long term safety? I don’t think adding more tension is the answer.
I don’t think it is adding an external guide either. If you have no pain and are moving well, weights are up and you fel great, I would say sit back and enjoy the freaking ride. Only time will have the true answer. I can argue that there is no longer data on mustard either.
You must always take into account the exercise decisions that you make. If you want to be highly specialized, it will come with a higher cost.
I agree that the best approach is to stay as close to “human shaped” as possible. You can still control that by the exercise you want to test!
I have seen very very few people that suffered a non contact injury that had zero warning signs. Almost every time there is a warning sign, but few choose to ACT on them.
I think it was Frankie that said “we only need to be sensitive enough to ACT” Trying to get extremely sensitive to all things is a road to chronic pain—a highly sensitive person.
When do you feel great—with more or less sensation? LESS
An external screen/test is fine, but the question you need to ask is it testing what you want?
If I pull someone out of the rainforest who has never seen a white person in their life and break out my FMS kit, what if they score a 16 out of 21 because they only pull their bow with their right hand? Are they not highly function? Is their body not highly survival based?
Hope that helps and thanks again for the comments!!
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Awesome to hear from you Steve! Great stuff and I loved your story. AWESOME!
We will get you to single digits body fat soon. I am working no some nutrition stuff that will be out later this Fall. Email me if you want to be a test subject. Tell your wife hello too.
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Thanks for taking time to comment here Todd! Much appreciate it!
You hit the nail on the head –feedback in the process is key and like all things it takes time and persistence.
The thing that we are doing differently here is providing more INSTANT feedback to keep you on track.
A plane that flys from MN to AZ makes thousands of very very small corrections to get there in a fast time.
If the plane flew to WA first and then found out it needed to go south more, it may still get to AZ, but it would take much longer.
Small corrections allow you to reach your goal much faster.
Make sense?
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Hi Mike,
Yes, it makes perfect sense to me, your immediate feedback approach seems like a very powerful complement to the larger feedback approach, that’s why I follow your articles, and why I responded here. Sorry I didn’t make that connection clear at first.
I think the biggest training mistakes over time are the ones that result from people plowing ahead with a program without any thought to really understanding its various effects over time, or similarly which result from not knowing what evaluation criteria make sense at each point. I think your approach can be very fruitfully used here.
kind regards,
Todd
Hi there Neal.
Thanks for the kind words and glad you liking the info.
Awesome feedback on the ROM test!
Perhaps Frankie will share more info on the orgin of the ROM in the future.
I don’t think the Grip n Rip DVD is that expensive when you consider it will probably be the last fitness product you ever buy. Frank bought 70 fitness products before it and has not bought one since last time I talked to him!
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
yup your right mike. I haven’t bought one product or video since. This training has literally saved me. I was hurt and in a bad mood all the time it was sickening. I am still learning every day. I train three people right now and they all are saying this is the best they felt in years, and not just one or two years but many years. I make nothing from saying this, money wise. Mike my pullups are better then ever before with no pain. I will soon get You that video to you. I now have a goal of 20 pullups, where as for before i couldn’t do one without pain. They look the best they ever have, and i am the heaviest i have been, go figure.
talk soon mike
Mike said …
“If I pull someone out of the rainforest who has never seen a white person in their life and break out my FMS kit, what if they score a 16 out of 21 because they only pull their bow with their right hand? Are they not highly function? Is their body not highly survival based?”
Um … it means that there’s room for improvement. It means that there are mobility/stability issues that could potentially cause problems. And it means that relying solely on performance-based metrics (high function/high survivability) is an inadequate strategy (in isolation) for determining potential movement inefficiencies that could lead to injury.
In fact, you’ve given a very good example of why a movement based screen WOULD be beneficial.
Incidentally, I didn’t say there was anything inherently wrong with asymmetry … only EXCESSIVE asymmetry.
Ironically it was GYM movement that got me to take the FMS seriously … When I saw one of the ladies I train with repeatedly test well using poor lifting technique … I realized that relying SOLELY on the bodies ROM was inadequate.
You might consider the following experiment …
Take the FMS test (It’ll take you 5 minutes). Video tape it. Put it up on youtube. Get an FMS guru (like Gray Cook or Brett Jones) to mark your result.
Then just train using Gym Movement protocols …
Take the FMS every two months, for a year.
And then we can see if there is a correlation/association between between ROM training and FMS results.
If your score improves on the FMS, WITHOUT having to do all the corrective exercises they suggest, then you’ve just shown them a far simpler way to get the results they’re after.
If your score stays the same … it shows them that Gym Movement is not a useful tool for them to get the results they’re after.
If your score gets worse … it shows them they should actively discourage Gym Movement as a training protocol.
Whether or not you believe the FMS actually measures anything of relevance, isn’t important. Because doing this experiment would certainly provide useful data for both Gym Movement and the FMS guys.
We’re talking about, probably 2 hours of your time over an entire year to accomplish this experiment.
(Incidentally, I basically use the FMS as guide to ADD various ‘corrective’ exercises into my arsenal … I still TEST them … it just given me specific exercises that are focused on specific weaknesses the FMS has picked up … in my instance, it’s particularly exercises that help correct poor rotational stability)… So I guess I have a foot in both camps.
And BTW. I can’t emphasize enough that I’m a total newbie at the FMS … I got all my info FROM A BOOK, and I’ve MODIFIED it to fit within my basic biofeedback training style.
So if I’ve misinterpreted/misused the FMS, it’s concepts, it’s goals, it’s implementation etc. please gimme a little lee-way.
At any rate, given your contacts in the fitness world, you’re in a far better position than me of finding quality info on the topic
I think we’ve spent enough time beating this to death. I hope I’ve clarified my position … As I said, if anything I’ve said is useful, then good. If anything is unhelpful, then ignore it.
All the best.
K
Thanks Todd!
I would agree. Just because it says so on this piece of paper that I MUST do this exercise today, does not make it true.
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Hi there Frank!
Thanks for the comment and info! What an awesome story and kudos to you for taking the chance on info in Grip n Rip and putting it into use.
Awesome!
Excited to see the pull up video too and you will be cranking 20 pullups in the coming months
Rock on
Mike T Nelson
Kira,
Thanks for the comment and I do love your idea of testing. My issues or point I was trying to make was that I am not convinced that getting a 16 or whatever is a bad score and my leg will fall off. If someone is highly functional, performs well and is surviving fine, I am not concerned what their FMS score is.
Kira stated
I’ve seen people score a 20 out of 21 on the FMS that still move rather poor in my opinion. I think that the FMS is poorly correlated to overall movement in my opinion. Add to this that I could train the movements and get much better at them! I hear this is a no no, but what if the athlete is an Olympic lifter already? How good is Ethel going to be on rep 1 of an overhead squat? She is probably going to suck at it. Oooops, poor FMS score then.
At best I think the FMS is a very rough SCREEN.
We can test it, but even if the numbers change a bit, I will not be enough for me to alter my current practice. Perhaps this is me being pig headed and stubborn, who knows.
I don’t like how performance and function are so separate. It makes no sense to me that someone could be very high function/high survivability and still have movement inefficiencies that could lead to injury. Every exercise should be an assessment–it either made you move better or worse. It should not be complicated, but yet specific to the skills you want to obtain (hence, test the exercises that you pick to do).
So , I do think that if the FMS measures anything of relevance is EXACTLY the point. Why do a test if you don’t believe the outcome or the outcome will not change your action? If there is no action change ever, then the test is pointless.
Rock on
Mike T Nelson