Get Off the Foam Roller
Foam rollers are common these days and can be found in every sports catalogue in various types, styles and colors. Many top coaches and trainers recommend their use by athletes of all types. Some people are even said to SLEEP with them (1) (you know who you are Mr. Kevin Larabee of The Fitcast fame).
Background and the reasons why people foam roll
The standard argument for self-myofascial release (SMR) on a foam roller is possible thanks to the principle known as autogenic inhibition. Unless you have been living under a rock, you have probably heard of the Golgi Tendon Organ (GTO) at some point. The GTO is a special mechanoreceptor (remember those from previous articles ) in this case found at the muscle-tendon junction. It’s job in life is to detect changes in tension in the muscle and to work as a safety mechanism by releasing muscle tension when the force becomes too great to potentially cause injury.
The fancy name for this reflexive relaxation is autogenic inhibition. When you apply force to the muscle via a foam roller you add muscle tension, and thus causing the GTO to relax the muscle.
Sounds awesome doesn’t it? Just 10 minutes a day and I should be all set right?
This simpleton argument has been questioned within the past few years (for an overview on reflexes click here ) Plus this argument also leaves out the whole rest of the nervous system! As I’ve said before, physiology is messy and seldom that simple.
A full discussion of the GTO is beyond this article (I hear a sigh of relief), but Fallon, JB et al. (2) stated recently, “The responses of the various muscle receptors to vibration are more complicated than a naive categorization into stretch (muscle spindle primary ending), length (muscle spindle secondary endings), and tension (Golgi tendon organs) receptors”. Cui, J. et al. (3) recently have shown in healthy humans mechanoreceptor(s) stimulation may even evoke significant increases in blood pressure. It is all connected via the nervous system.
Here the 2 main arguments of why I don’t think people should foam roll
1) Tissue properties
What are you trying to achieve? What is your goal? Most then cry “I want, better tissue properties”–ok, fair answer, but what does better tissue properties get you? Most are after better muscle function and some to get out of pain and better tissue properties is a step in that direction.
The nervous system is the key (notice a theme yet?) Now before you get all crazy on trigger points and how they effect muscular force (which is a good point), how did the trigger point get there? I’ve done a fair amount of cadaver work and so far I have yet to see one trigger point. Actually non-fixed (fresh) tissue does not hold tension on its own. I have yet to see a slab of muscle get tense! Yes, certain structures are stiffer than others, but I have yet to see any muscle or tendons that resemble piano wires that I see most people’s necks. The nervous system is controlling the level of tension.
Plus the thought of adding high amounts of external tension to your body in order to relieve tension seems odd to me. So I should add the thing I am trying to reduce? I know physiology is messy, but food for thought.
2) Foam rolling can be painful.
Pain will actually inhibit your gains. Now I know some will get up in my grill about how they are making gains in the gym and they are in pain and I agree that this can happen, but my argument is that it is not OPTIMAL.
First, what is pain?
The International Association for the Study of Pain defines pain “as an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage or described in terms of such damage.”(4)
The take away here is that pain is associated with actual or potential damage. Pain is produced when the brain perceives that danger to body tissues exists and that action is required a
s a survival response. Imagine early cave man days and Captain Caveman sticks his hand in the fire. What happens next? He yells some unintelligible explicative and promptly removes his hand from the fire! Pain is an ACTION SIGNAL—move your darn hand out of the fire!
Remember that pain does not live in the ankle that you sprained or Captain Caveman’s hand, but it is an interpretation of the brain. The signal from your Captain Caveman’s hand is sent up to his prehistoric brain where his brain then interprets the degree of pain.
It was rumored that civil war soldiers that lost entire limbs were initially NOT in pain since they were so grateful to be alive that the thought of even loosing a limb was nothing compared to be pushing up daisies.
It is true that if the damage sustained is severe enough, the pain and resultant shock can become the highest threat and require a survival response (5).
The brain and the nervous system control ALL muscle movements. When pain occurs it inhibits the nervous system as a protective mechanism.
Remember that the body only cares about survival and does not give a hairy rat’s butt about performance. If I injure my elbow, my nervous system will start to shut down the muscles around that joint as a protective mechanism to try to prevent further damage (ala arthrokinetic reflex).
So the windy road back to our friend the foam roller. If you are on the ole foam roller before a training session and it is painful, you are turning on the “neurologic brakes” and thus decreasing your performance.
Confession time
I used have athletes foam roll over there ITB/TFL (lateral quad) and if they yelped in pain I would promptly declare “You there– you have some ITB/ TFLs that are so tight you can bounce quarter off them” and would promptly have them do multiple foam roller sessions each day.
n>Most times in a few weeks the pain would become less and I would then declare “Good thing I fixed that issue,” but did I? Why were they still foam rolling (albeit in less pain). Wait, I thought this was the solution? Why did I not see a huge change in their movement? Are they doomed to the foam roller the rest of their life?
What do you think is causing those “tight” muscles you are foam rolling?
Hmmmmm. I have an idea!
The joints (along with the nervous system) are causing those “tight” muscles, and this is one of the main tenets of the Z Health system. If the joints are sending noxious stimuli to the brain (which may or may NOT be painful, remember that interpretation of the signal in the brain), the brain will try to protect the joints by decreasing strength done by the muscles around it (and other muscles also). If you have tight hamstrings, foam rolling your hamstrings will probably not solve the issue LONG TERM. Working on the foot/ankle and some times elbow circles may help hamstring issues, but that is another topic.
Anyone want to buy a foam roller?
The current trend in some areas seems to be going to more and more aggressive pain inducing massicistic massage. If I had no scruples, I would file IP on a foam roller with spikes on it! Seriously, I think that could have been my retreat to Fiji idea. If someone reads this and does do it, please drop me an invite to your private dessert island.
Foam roller work must also follow the SAID (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand) principal meaning that your body will ALWAYS adapt to EXACTLY what you do. So we know that doing foam roller work will make you better at doing foam roller work. Last I checked, there was not a foam roller competition, but maybe they have one now. I doubt there is much positive transfer from foam rolling to many other activities, but I will leave that for you to test out.
Does this mean that all soft tissue work is bad?
Of course not! A foam roller even by most of its biggest advocates admits that it is rather limited and works well primarily for the lower extremities. Massage has a neat feature where the hands working on you are attached to someone else’s brain that can intrepid what the heck is going on and adjust accordingly. Last time I checked, foam rollers were pretty dumb (another free IP idea is a “smart foam” roller that increases density in response to force). Even some ART practitioners are experimenting with lighter pressure with good results. I do think there still is a tendency to only treat the site of pain (although this is changing) and many times the relief is short lived.
So what do I do? Help!
I am a realist and know that very few are going to have a foam roller burning party based off of one article on my blog, but one can dream right. Wait, check that, Al Gore just called and said that the burning of foam rollers is bad for green house gases so please recycle them instead. No green credits for you, bad dog. Instead, you could use it in place of board presses at your local gym.
To quote Jim Wendler “You don’t have to smuggle the foam into a commercial gym like you would the boards. You can simply state that it is a rehab tool. And when you say “tool” you can smile and make sure the Jabroni at the front desk knows that you are actually talking about him.” (6)
1) At minimum, don’t do any foam roller work before a training session and maybe only some light work afterwards
2) Make sure it is NOT painful, especially if you are doing it before a lifting session. Remember pain decreases performance.
3) Try replacing some foam roller work with some precise joint mobility like the Z Health Neuro Warm Up
4) Find a trainer/therapist that uses non painful hands on work combined with active mobility work. A Z Health Level 4 (hey, that is me—shameless I know) is a great place to start. Even many of the R Phase movements can have profound results on soft tissue due to the involvement of the nervous system.
Any comments, let me have em’
Rock on
Mike N
REFERENCES
1. Dr. John Berardi: G-Flux Simplified. March 3, 2007. The Fitcast Insider www.thefitcastinsider.com. Accessed June 5, 2007.
2. Fallon J. B., V. G. Macefield. Vibration sensitivity of human muscle spindles and Golgi tendon organs. Muscle Nerve. 36(1):21-29, 2007.
3. Cui J., V. Mascarenhas, R. Moradkhan, C. Blaha, L. I. Sinoway. Effects of Muscle Metabolites on Responses of Muscle Sympathetic Nerve Activity to Mechanoreceptor(s) Stimulation in Healthy Humans. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol., 2007.
4. [IASP] International Association for the Study of Pain. 2008, Jan 3. IASP home page. http://www.iasp-pain.org. Accessed Jan 3 2008.
5. Dr. Eric Cobb. Personal communication. December 19, 2007.
6. Foam Pressing, 2007, Jim Wendler http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=48812&tid=102 Accessed Jan 7, 2008.


















Mike,
You continue to impress. Barring relatives and significant others, I am probably your biggest fan.
I am so psyched about your upcoming contributions to the book. Keep up the excellent blogs!
fF
Thanks fF! Very much appreciated!
I am very excited to read the book as it is going to be huge! I feel honored to be able to contribute to it.
Thanks again for all the wisdom, knowledge, and random kicks in the pants when I need it.
Rock on
Mike N
Mike,
Nicely done – good research etc…
I myself have gone away from the foam roller and use Z at this point to take care of my issues (the physical ones anyway) and/but I am still a fan of massage and soft tissue work.
Thanks Brett!
What have you noticed in your results since your change?
Correct, I am in NO WAY stating that there is no use for hands on work—quite the opposite actually as long as it is NOT painful and combined with movement.
I’ve been doing some very light hands on work recently since T Phase with pretty good results. Many times I incorporate a Z movement and sometimes even eye (or vestibular), Z drill, and hands on work simultaneously. I worked on a client this past Sat that hobbled in as his QL perhaps (lower back area-I am not overly concerned with the exact muscle) was painful and knotted up. He needed eye work in addition to a Z drill with hands on work simultaneously to get the pain to less than a 1. Total time from when I started work on him to when it released was 5 minutes. I also had the luxury of working with him over the past year, so that makes it easier to guess what he may need.
The best part was that we then did DLs in that session after the Neuro Warm Up, started very slow, but he ended up hitting a PR that day and left feeling great! The body is so amazing, we just need to find the right stimulus at times to give it that extra “push” in the right direction.
Comments from others?
Rock on
Mike N
Very interesting write up Mike! I have to say I have used the foam roller quite a bit during the years and it has worked very for spinal extensions for people with rigid Thoracic spines.
Would you prescribe the foam roller for people with limited range of motion in the T spine?
I have had both Dr. Cobb and Z-health guru Josh Henkin work with me in the past with Z-health for my back and I actually got worse. Now I realize Z is not a cure all, but I wish I had got the results that you so often talk about. Maybe I’m a non responder to Z……damn…
Now what did help me was NMT on my back performed by some very talented therapists.
Although I must say that the Z work for my neck and jaw was highly beneficial!!!
Thanks for the comments Franz!
Personally I am not a fan of foam roller work as I feel a vast majority of the time you can get good thoracic movement without it (esp in the first seated position of the Z Health thoracic movement in R Phase). If you do opt to use the foam roller make sure it is not painful and you follow up your new ROM with an active mobility drill so that there is a learning effect and better transfer (carry over).
There is not any super special modality that will work for 100% of the people 100% of the time, esp in one session. The key with Z and any modality is to figure out why people have compensations and then test your results. Precision and compliance with the follow up drills is also needed on the client/athletes part too.
There are some that may be “Z non responders”, but I would venture that they are very small percentage. The more I learn, the fewer non responders I find. Many times it just means I am missing something and I’m not providing the correct stimulus.
Rock on
Mike N
Interesting Post Mike! Although I do not agree with you about foam rollers you bring up some great points about pain and its reactions in the nervous system. Pain should be minimized during any treatment or exercise session to avoid sympathetic overload.
My use of the foam roller mainly involves postural corecctive strategies (primarily around the trunk and spine) and blood flow augmentation to ischemic tissues. My first choice would always be some active mobiliation and/or hand-on soft-tissue work performed by myself; the foam roll is just a tool; not a cure all by any means.
Mindlessly rolling around on the roller isn’t doing any real benefit just as mindless bodywork is mostly useless. If a tool (any tool) encourages AWARENESS and change in subsequent behavior than it is a valuable tool.
I’m actually finishing up filming a video of self-masage/regeneration tool that contains THE DREADED FOAM ROLLER! I think it will be helpful to the vast majority of our movement-deprived ischemic-tissue laden population; but the Z-crowd doesn’t have to buy it if they don’t want:)
Thanks Franz.
A foam roller DVD—on no! :0
I just think for most people to do on their own with limited time, a vast majority would be well served by some precise joint mobiity work and also visual/vestibular work in place of foam rolling. I agree that hands on work and awarenss are great.
You have to back up and think what causes poor tissue quality? Ischemia, muscle knots–ok, but go all the way back to the logical conclusion and you be at nervous system control, hence the need from active precise work.
Rock on and I appreciate the comments
Mike N
Mike,
It is nice to see that there are still thinkers in this era of “misinformation”. I have been studying muscle imbalance concepts for over 5 years now and haven’t yet come to any conclusions in regards to fixing “muscle and nerve firing pattern dysfunctions”, my words sorry. As a DC I understand the PNS , however once a tissue a been chronicly scared, I am wondering if there is a method to reduce the scar tissue “not soften it”? I have taken the Corrective Exercise Specialist NASM course among several others in Chiropractic Rehabilitation, and I agree with your perception of the foam roller. I use ART on acute injuries with good benefits, I have studied NMT methods such as Strain-Counterstrain, PNF, Contract Relax, and ON and ON and ON. After completing my reading of “Rehabilitation of the Spine” by Leibenson, I am even more perplexed than ever. Janda’s work on Muscle Imbalances gives the antomy but no treatment ideas that are revolutionary. Please read my first blog entry and give me some feedback as to your thoughts. I am new to blogging and I know this is too long already. I am just busting at the seems with interpretations of research and I am desperately needing some guidance as to finding a practical method for addressing the many physical dysfunctions I see with clients and patients.
Yours in Health and Wellness,
Dr. Scott
Your question about scar tissue is a good one. Depends if you are talking long term or acutely. The most common thing I hear is that scar tissue is restrictiing motion and you must get in there and physically break it up. This may be correct, but I’ve seen too many people all of sudden regain motion that was lost for months up to years with some precise mobility work (like Z Health) to target the nervous system. I think the nervous system has locked down certain motions as a protective mechanism–kind of like the shock sensor on your laptop’s hardrive that will shut down the drive when there is an impact to protect it.
Your questions are excellent ones. Here are 2 key points that I know were huge for me to attempt to figure stuff out and I need to thank Dr. Cobb and everyone at Z Health for pointing them out
1) SAID principal. Take it to its logical conclusion. Get back to me on what you figure out (not trying to be a prick, I am seriously interested in what conclusions you reach)
2) How does new info get into the nervous system/brain? In general it is proprioception, visual and/or vestibular. To make changes, you will need to primarily work with these systems.
In my biased opinion, most researchers/clinicians don’t apply the above to their work so you are left with some brillant ideas/techniques that become of limited use for LONG TERM change.
Make any sense?
Thanks again for your comments
Mike N
Mike,
I appreciate the comment and I like the direction you are taking me. I use the specificity principle when training athletes or when teaching activities of daily living. After studying some of Feldenkreis’s work, along with some of the research from Bruuger, and Pavel Kolar, in regards to Agonist-Antagonist Coactivation in the developmental stages, I understand some of the neuronal pathways of functional movement, but haven’t understood how to get around the dysfunctional movement when a client has pain. Without getting all research on you Mike, I have understood some of what I have read, but sometimes I feel that when I was only 13 I had the right idea in training. After my GoJu Ryu training, I would go home and take a 15 pound bar and do Bo Katas with it until exhaustion. I would do punching drills with weights and climb trees with sand in my backpack amoung other crazy drills. During this time in my youth I was incredibly strong, agile, and fast. It wasn’t until I reached that testosterone filled age of 15-16 that I started doing Closed Kinetic Chain Bench Work. Sucks, because I think I caused most on my spinal and extremity issues by not training for the sport I was in. Vestibular and Respiratory Synkkinesis is something that I use when performing adjustments to the neck and trunk, as well as PIR. I only new this through my own biofeedback training and through repetition and concentration. However, I can’t seem to get the average client to concentrate and breath properly when performing even the most basic movement awareness exercises. Any insight?
I Thought about using a Reflex Locomotion technique but these seem timely and uncomfortable for people to lay on the ground and perform baby like movements, as I touch certain trunk points. Does your work with Z-Health work with such systems or are most of the exercises mostly biofeedback. Curious, even though I will probably order the R-phase program asap, so I know alittle more about the work.
Thanks for the comments! Sounds like you have gone above and beyond in terms of doing your own homework and further study! I will keep you in mind since I am not super familiar with tons of modalities, just in passing with most of them. I may have future questions for you.
Here is a simple tip from Dr. Cobb again—the SAID principal can apply to EVERYTHING. You either believe in it or you don’t; so apply it to training, rehab, body work etc. When you go in for some body work, most will lay you down flat on your back and work on you. Does that transfer to even standing up? Maybe/Maybe not, but if I do work on you while standing I have the greatest chance of transfer to standing (seems simple I know).
In regards to breath work while moving, I find that for most it can be too much to start. I initially focus on long (tall) neutral spine and hitting the exact target on the Z joint mobility drills. Once they get good at the drills I will work in breath coordination. Again, it all depends on the person. I may give them specific breath retraining separately to work on relearning abdominal breathing though as this is needed in most people. The SAID principal applies here again too!
Z works to neurologically retrain movements via joint mobility work (initially) and to decrease SMA (sensor motor amnesia) thus increase biofeedback at the same time. Pretty cool!
You can get the R Phase from the upper right link.
Let me know how it goes!
Rock on
Mike N
Mike,
Thanks for the feedback and reiterating the SAID principle. I do believe in the principle, I also believe in the theory that All Matter Has Limitations, especially when taking that matter into a foreign environment. With all of the technical advanced in our society, the human machine is without movement. That said, I am in the process of rethinking ideas from your perspective. I just wish I could get that “Eureka!” moment. I know in my mind that Movement Repatterning is going to be the way, I just hope its not going to be too late for our extremely dysfunctional nation. As Pete Egoscue addressed in his interesting books, we are a nation trapped behind desks and in cars. With the amount of information available over the internet, a person could easily burn out mentally. I think I am getting close to burning out my adrenals, humorously. Thanks for the interesting blog. I will be visiting often in search for answers during my quest for understanding “physical rebalancing”.
“The first requisite for success is the ability to apply your physical and mental energies to one problem incessantly without growing weary.” Thomas A. Edison
Thanks again Mike!
Scott H.
Mike,
Here is an interesting article, if you haven’t already read it.
Make you wonder about the power of thought in relation to relearning movement patterns.
Scott H.
Sorry Mike,
Whoopps!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/science/15robo.html
Mike,
Fascinating stuff! I really appreciate all the time you took this weekend to talk to Aaron and I about Z-health. I’m still trying to digest all of it. Very exciting!
Steve Reishus
Bodydoctor,
Thanks for the comments and yes you will get there. Keep thinking SAID and Logical Conclusion
Thanks for the robot article too! Nice! Frankie sent me that one also.
Drop me an email (can get it through my profile) as I have two people that you need to talk to–the exchange of ideas will be great!
Rock on
Mike N
Thanks Steve! Very nice to meet you at the NSCA conference here. Tell Aaron hello also.
Nice blog! Nice lifts that that bodyweight–whoo ha. Are you doing the meet Feb 2 here at the Press gym? If so I will be out there watching.
Feel free to drop me a line whenever you are here around White Bear Lake as I have a gym in my garage–EliteFTS 2X2 rack, TX powerbar, KBs, tires, etc. It would be great to exchange ideas. Good times!
Keep in touch!
Mike N
Yes, I’ll be there! I’m competing in the raw division. I’ll definitely keep in touch!
Steve Reishus
Mike,
You are THEE MAN! Great article. I think the foam roller is another excuse for people to lay down to exercise. I’m selling my foam roller on E-Bay.
Keep up the good work, bro.
-Joe
Thanks Joe–much appreciated!
Rock on
Mike N
After a disappointing 6 months of no visible results (and possible negative results) from Z-R/Phase I was introduced to foam roller work via Rif’s video. As a modality for improving quality of movement, foam roll work has delivered all I expected from Z and did not get.
I especially have to disagree with you about pre- workout rolling…yeah it hurts (IT and VL especially) but I move much better and have found nothing else better as a warmup for squats, snatches and cleans as the foam roll. I move much more freely after a foam roll pre- weightlifting “warmup” session and I recover much quicker when I use it afterwards. The guys I train with swear by it too.
I agree with some of your comments about the nervous system and muscle tension…but all forms of stretching: static, ballistic, PNF, (even relax into stretch)…involve applying tension to release tension…so I don’t buy that particular criticism of the foam roll.
Randy Hauer
Thanks for the comments Randy! I’ve read some of your articles at Dragon Door–great stuff!
Awesome that you found something that works for you and you actually tested it. It is hard to disagree wtih results.
Did you work with a Z Trainer for ahwile or just from the DVD? As you know, most non painful movement is good; but sometimes certain movements (yes, even Z Health drills) are not good. The precision of the drils also has to be very high, done with virtually no tension.
Z Health, like anything else is not a panacea for everything either and every system will always have some non responders.
Thanks again for your comments and I look forward to further articles from you.
Take care
Mike N
Mike,
GREAT post. Well thought out. Well written. I’m very impressed by the increased quality of your posts. Keep them coming.
Geoff
Thanks Geoff! That means a ton coming from someone such as yourself.
More good stuff coming soon!
Rock on
Mike N
Mike,
two things
1) Z people seem to apply the S.A.I.D principle to everything implying that every movement will produce some sort of adaptation. From my understanding of SAID there must be an OVERLOAD involved in order to trigger an adaptive response.
example: going in the sun for a short time will not produce an adaption response( tanning) because there was no overload of stress, whereas a long exposure will.
Same with exercise.Doing a movement that is not maximal in some way will not produce an adaption towards increased capacity. there must be an overload in order for adaptation to occur.
How does “your body adapts to everything you do” square with that?
2) the question you asked Randy about whether he had worked with a Z practictioner or had just used the dvd. If one needs to work with a practitioner, or even moreso, an advanced practicitoner, to get results isnt that quite a limiting factor in the usefullness of Z?
while I do Z myself quite a bit and recommend it to my clients regularly I find that the foam roller is very effective for untrained persons to work on releiving muscle tension and pain themselves; immediately.
this has been a great boon. No,” well you have to find an advanced practitioner to really get started”.
thanks
Rif
Thanks for the good comments Rif! Excellent question about the SAID principal and overload.
My thoughts are that you either believe in the SAID principal or not. You can’t pick and choose when it applies (not saying that you are).
For the sun tan example, I would say that when you go out in the sun for a very short period of time, there is a change taking place (response of the skin to sun light), but you are correct that this may or may not result in a BENEFICIAL response (a tan in this case). You are correct that would need an overload to the system to cause it to adapt in a POSITIVE manner.
Make sense?
As to the second part, one of the differences with Z compared to other general mobility programs is the precision of the exercises which is hard to convey over the DVD. I found that I got about 50% of the benefit from doing non precise Z work when I started.
Just like most things, you can’t beat one on one coaching/cues etc in person.
I don’t think most people need to work with an advanced Z person at all and most times a R Phase trainer is just fine. Again, more difficult cases will require more background/experience and work on other systems (visual, vestibular and even soft tissue) besides just proprioception (joint mobility work). Pain relief is a specialized skill set.
Physiology is messy and there are many ways that produce results.
Thanks for the comments! Let me know if you have any further questions on this.
Take care
Mike N
Mike,
I’m not sure about your question “you either believein theS.A.ID principle or not.”
I belive in it but also beleive there must an overload for an adaptive response to occur.
for instance in the tanning example; yes if one goes in the sun but doesnt incur enough ’stress’(overload) to create an adaptive repsonse you could say there was an adaptation( no tan) but I dont see it as such. same with training.
to me saying that everything creates an adaptation would imply a constant state of adapting and re adapting to every single stimulus one enounters all the ,time.
I’m not sure how that would work.
so in the sense of training loads if one’s resistance isnt enough to create a postive adaption(getting stronger) then there is a lack of adaptation(staying the same strength level),not necessarily a negative one.
back to the point simply doing a movement is not creating an adaptation towards always doing the movement that specific way if there wasnt enough of an overload to creat an adaptive change.
and yes as you say, its all very messy,:))
as far as gettin acros the precision needed tomake gains with z I think it could have been gotten across better on the dvd if it had been emphasized much more;althoug,from my own experiences,even doing them far from perfectly I have gotten great gains.
THe drills however do very little for my DOMS from training,whereas the roller, massager and myofascial release balls do quite alot.
again, imo, z is a great tool in the box, I just don’t beleive it replaces all the other tools forever.
rif
Rif,
Thought I would jump in on some of this:
“I’m not sure about your question “you either believe in the S.A.I.D principle or not.”
I believe in it but also believe there must an overload for an adaptive response to occur.”
I don’t think the overload principle is precise enough in telling the story of adaptation. I think it is useful to define adaptation as “learning.” I think this dovetails nicely with Motor Learning Theory.
We are always learning, we are always adapting. Some things we can learn in 1 rep. Other things require more reps.
Not everything we learn becomes permanent. Some things we learn are more short term than long term. That doesn’t negate the fact that doing something just one single time has an effect.
For every cause, there is an effect. For every stimulus, there is a response. This doesn’t mean the effect or response is permanent or hard wired.
“The drills however do very little for my DOMS from training,whereas the roller, massager and myofascial release balls do quite alot. Again, imo, Z is a great tool in the box, I just don’t believe it replaces all the other tools forever.”
One of the reasons I don’t like the tool box metaphor is that Z is a different way of approaching – well, everything.
I like to think of it more as a lens to look at the human body and EVERYTHING the human does. What does the human body do? Move – it just moves.
R-Phase is just small movements. Z changes the way all movement is approached. When that happens, the negative ramifications of training are drastically minimized.
How I lift KB’s, CB’s and everything else are much different than how I used to lift them. I’m not Hardstyle-ing it and I am not GS-ing it, I am just moving. A KB just happens to be in my hand.
Rif, I have always viewed you as a Master of the things you do. It seems a bit premature to have a judgment of Z when you haven’t even attended the first cert. I have faith that someday you are going to be teaching me a thing or two about Z.
Frankie
frankie,
my experience with the SAID principle has definitely been seen through the prism of athletic training with the concept of overload being at the forefront of that.applying it to foam rolling and joint mobility is a new concept to me that I still have to get my head around;especially in the realm of motor learning.
As with Z in general and the details of Z I am open to it.
Remember, I like Z. I use it EVERYDAY. I recommend the R phase dvd and manual to ALL my clients.I just don’t think I have plumbed the depths of the info I have already and mastered that so I don’t quite feel the need to take on more info.
This is esepcially true for my clients who seem to have enough time slowing down and focusing enough to really ‘get’ the concepts in R phase.
One problem for me with Z “true believers” is the concept is that “this ( rphase manual,e tc) isnt the “real” thing. the “real” info is at the cert, the I phase,the S phase, etc.
This is why I was so reluctant to even buy the R phase dvd at first- so little info coming out- ALL TOP SECRET. to be honest that bugs me.
When I got the R phase stuff I was amazed it was so simple.”why didnt they just tell me this” I thought immediately. That would have sold me.
The super -secret- state of the art physiology matrix THis will change EVERYTHING stuff just puts me off.
As far as the DOMS comment, you really didnt answer that except to tell me how you would use Z to deal with that. More of the above,I resepctfully submit.
If Z is so unbeleivablly unique I would like to see the scientific world accept it as such as well.Or at least come to some of the same conclusions you have.I have incredible anaecdotal experiences with all kinds of methodologies that work but arent the “next big leap”.
Yes all life is movement and Z is just moving; EXACTLY what I found from the R phase dvd,it’s very simple and you know I like to keep things simple.As much as possible.
I do like to Master things as much as I can. That is why I am unafraid to go very slowly as I experiment and absorb, use and discard. I do not have a negative judgment about Z, as I said I use and recommend it daily.I just dont think it’s the second coming of Christ.
And I have a hard time beleiving all the champion athletes I have known and studied all my life were ‘doing things wrong’ because they didnt know Z. Again, they were jsut moving and figured out some seriously fantasic ways to do so.
thanks for the kind words and comments frankie.
frankie,
one more thing re: using kbs neither gs or hs
the question I would ask is are you numbers and strength better now than before? that to me, along with better recovery would be the important thing. I , as well have my own “unique” swing and snatch techniques I have developed for ME.I think all methods whether HS or Gs are starting point from which the intermediate/advanced trained individuates.
Rif,
to your comments:
“One problem for me with Z “true believers” is the concept is that “this ( r phase manual,e tc) isn’t the “real” thing. the “real” info is at the cert, the I phase,the S phase, etc. This is why I was so reluctant to even buy the R phase dvd at first- so little info coming out- ALL TOP SECRET. to be honest that bugs me.” When I got the R phase stuff I was amazed it was so simple why didnt they just tell me this” I thought immediately. That would have sold me. The super -secret- state of the art physiology matrix THis will change EVERYTHING stuff just puts me off.”
I remember Eric saying that Z is simply the SAID principle taken to its logical conclusion. Many trainers after attending R-Phase will read the first 20 pages in the manual and be amazed that everything in the cert was already in the manual. They just didn’t take things to their logical conclusion.
Eric has many gifts but spelling it out isn’t one of them. It isn’t the concepts of Z that are new, only the conclusions. Simply take the SAID principle and apply it to all movement and you don’t need to attend any Z certs or purchase any more Z products.
“As far as the DOMS comment, you really didnt answer that except to tell me how you would use Z to deal with that. More of the above,I resepctfully submit.”
OK, let me be more explicit. I would not lift in the manner I see you lifting on your blog. That would not eliminate all DOMS but it should drastically reduce it. Perhaps in the near future, I ‘ll shoot some video and put it up on youtube as to how I would lift KB’s
“If Z is so unbelievably unique I would like to see the scientific world accept it as such as well. Or at least come to some of the same conclusions you have.I have incredible anecdotal experiences with all kinds of methodologies that work but aren’t the “next big leap”. Yes all life is movement and Z is just moving; EXACTLY what I found from the R phase dvd,it’s very simple and you know I like to keep things simple. As much as possible. I do like to Master things as much as I can. That is why I am unafraid to go very slowly as I experiment and absorb, use and discard. I do not have a negative judgment about Z, as I said I use and recommend it daily. I just dont think it’s the second coming of Christ.
And I have a hard time believing all the champion athletes I have known and studied all my life were ‘doing things wrong’ because they didn’t know Z. Again, they were jsut moving and figured out some seriously fantastic ways to do so. thanks for the kind words and comments frankie.”
Rif, I don’t Eric is focused on convincing the scientific community of anything as much as he is making a living and helping people.
Beyond genetic gifts, I think the best of the best are great examples of the SAID principle in action. They spend quite a bit of time specifically practicing.
“one more thing re: using kbs neither gs or hs
the question I would ask is are you numbers and strength better now than before? that to me, along with better recovery would be the important thing. I , as well have my own “unique” swing and snatch techniques I have developed for ME. I think all methods whether HS or Gs are starting point from which the intermediate/advanced trained individuates.”
Rif, what matters to me is quality of movement. At this time, it makes no sense to me to focus only on a few movements (swing, snatch, clean, jerk) and increase the quantity of those movements (load, volume). How many movements do PL’s give up to be good at 3?
I choose to make all of my movements better. If there is a “set” of movements I am specializing in – it would be BJJ. While I don’t agree with all of Brett and Geoff’s lifting practices, they have certainly changed their approach because of Z (beyond adding in joint mobility). If you need examples of strength athletes having a greater output – there you go.
Great discussion here! Thanks for the comments and questions Rif and thanks Frankie for the answers.
In relation to DOMS I don’t think it matters a whole lot since most people are looking at performance (athlete to run faster, powerliferts to lift more, bodybuilders to get bigger), and sometimes a result of the approach needed to achieve your goal is some muscle soreness.
If there is too much soreness, this can interfere with correct training though due to pain.
Also, as you have pointed out Rif, pain is HIGHLY variable from one person to the next. This is also a huge problem for pain researchers using the VAS as a way to quantify pain (although it seems to be repeatable, REF http://repositories.cdlib.org/postprints/1579/)
Also, there are some studies to show decelerated glycogen resynthesis after heavy DOMS inducing eccentric exercise (REF http://www.springerlink.com/content/xp99bj5nkhqn01la/ )
Yep, the first 20 pages of the R Phase manual has all of it! I did not get it until after R Phase though and honestly the second time I went it made even more sense. Some could read the first 20 pages and be all set though!
Everyone has stood on the shoulders of giants before them to allow an even better view. Many times this is the shortest way to achieve a goal.
In the end there are many ways that work and secrets are purple unicorns, but it is always good to keep looking for things that may work even better (as both of you have done and everyone that reads this blog.)
Thanks again for the comments! I am excited to see what you come up with after R Phase for sure Rif and please keep me in the loop!
Rock on
Mike N
Oh yeah,
Mike like to lift heavy things, too and I think he has had all time PR’s following Z principles (probably to the “t”).
frankie,
exactly! I am trying to take the info I already have to it’s logical conclusion. that is my point.
as far as the DOMS, getting away from my own personal style one must admit and accept that DOMS is a very commmon issue for most athletes if not trainees.There is no getting away from it, again,especially if one is a competitor. So again I respectfull ask, how would a Z professional deal with DOMS in a client or student?
As far as Z being the logical conclusion of SAID I wonder where are the ‘imposed demands” with an emphasis on the ‘demand’ from non intense/overload movements, and how does that create adaptation?
as far as Eric and Z not worrying about convincing the scientific community as to its validity and functionality I can totally relate, I too care more about results int he real world than what any (of the latest) scientific studies say “SHOULD” be the truth. But that holds true for Z for me as well; eg being foam roller use. I know it works and no studies or theories will convince me otherwise.
as far as giving up a lot of movement to be good at three I totally agree but I dont look at my kb ( and now cb) lifting as that. I limited it to the movements I did because that was ALL I could do without causing pain or less mobility. THe more I do of these the more mobility I have gained, not the opposite.there has definitely been a carryover effect from my unilateral kb work into my gait and my overall movement patterns and quality.no doubt at all.
Plus my increases in work capacity and gpp have been off the hook! energy for activities of daily living as well; which is my main reason for training these days.
thanks for the thoughtful repsonses
Mike
a key component to increased performance(aligning itself with SAID overload) is the ability to recovery from increasing work loads. in fact, it is THE limiting factor in increased performance,especially from a lifting standpoint. If I squat 500 lbs now and want to squat 600 I have to be able to recover from the workloads that I must do to reach that goal.
Decreasing DOMS with therapeutic modalities such as rolling, hydrotherapy, “Z”, massage, nutrition,mind training, etc. are CRUCIAL to an athletes ability to increase his or her production.
many many times heavy loading of one sort or another is inavoidable and the athlete should have many tools to ameliorate the after effects as possible. the winners will, that’s for sure.
Z is defintely a big part of that imho.Just not the whole thing.
I have no doubt I will attend the cert at one point or another asI want to be able to teach this as well.
Rif:
To your comments:
“So again I respectfully ask, how would a Z professional deal with DOMS in a client or student”
I cannot say how most Z professionals handle DOMS as Eric doesn’t deal with it in the Z lit as it stands now.
I can tell you how I deal with myself and my clients. Let’s go ahead and do the obvious stuff first:
Anti-Inflammatory Diet
Manual Therapy
Proteolytic Enzymes
Epson Salt Baths
Castor Packs
Homeopathic Compounds
Contrast Bathing/Dousing
Sauna, Steam Room
Among the more movement oriented stuff:
High Rep Fascial Loading (modified I-Phase drills)
Opposing joint/muscle/movement mobility
Vibration Training
Active Cryo-kinetics
Respiratory Retraining
I know some of it is in Z speak – but does that help?
Understand that I test all the movements, loads and reps I “prescribe” from set to set. While some of my fast twitch fiber type people get sore more often, they mainly get sore after they perform a novel movement. Even then, I don’t think the soreness compares to the beatdowns I used to hand out. And people leave moving better than when they came in and where challenged while they were with me.
“As far as Z being the logical conclusion of SAID I wonder where are the ‘imposed demands” with an emphasis on the ‘demand’ from non intense/overload movements, and how does that create adaptation?”
Imposed Demands I think comes mainly from volume and intensity. If you have side by side mirrors, check out your cervical alignment. Then do an anterior glide holding it for 30 secs. Relax and then look at your alignment again. There should be a change. I believe that change to be a function of volume.
Rif, the absolute coolest thing about Z is it gives you at least three tests to test all of your movement practice….and yes, sometimes the “bad” things are good for you.
I have no doubt KBs and CBs are good for you quite often. I think with more awareness training, you’ll be able to pinpoint the movements and tools that will be best in any frame of time.
Rif:
To your comments:
“So again I respectfully ask, how would a Z professional deal with DOMS in a client or student”
I cannot say how most Z professionals handle DOMS as Eric doesn’t deal with it in the Z lit as it stands now.
I can tell you how I deal with myself and my clients. Let’s go ahead and do the obvious stuff first:
Anti-Inflammatory Diet
Manual Therapy
Proteolytic Enzymes
Epson Salt Baths
Castor Packs
Homeopathic Compounds
Contrast Bathing/Dousing
Sauna, Steam Room
Among the more movement oriented stuff:
High Rep Fascial Loading (modified I-Phase drills)
Opposing joint/muscle/movement mobility
Vibration Training
Active Cryo-kinetics
Respiratory Retraining
I know some of it is in Z speak – but does that help?
Understand that I test all the movements, loads and reps I “prescribe” from set to set. While some of my fast twitch fiber type people get sore more often, they mainly get sore after they perform a novel movement. Even then, I don’t think the soreness compares to the beatdowns I used to hand out. And people leave moving better than when they came in and where challenged while they were with me.
“As far as Z being the logical conclusion of SAID I wonder where are the ‘imposed demands” with an emphasis on the ‘demand’ from non intense/overload movements, and how does that create adaptation?”
Imposed Demands I think comes mainly from volume and intensity. If you have side by side mirrors, check out your cervical alignment. Then do an anterior glide holding it for 30 secs. Relax and then look at your alignment again. There should be a change. I believe that change to be a function of volume.
Rif, the absolute coolest thing about Z is it gives you at least three tests to test all of your movement practice….and yes, sometimes the “bad” things are good for you.
I have no doubt KBs and CBs are good for you quite often. I think with more awareness training, you’ll be able to pinpoint the movements and tools that will be best in any frame of time.
Good questions and points Rif. Thanks for the help Frankie!! The list of recovery items is great!!
Yep, lifting heavy things is fun. Gotta love the deadlift!!
Yes, I added almost 60 lbs to my deadlift (in competition) in less than 1 year and a HUGE portion of this is due to Z. Granted, I did change my technique based on what I learned at R Phase and fixing up some issues had a huge carry over to my DL (and other lifts). The best part is I feel better now than I ever have. In the past I would be destroyed after a heavy DL day and now I feel fine. Still more work to go, but that is never ending.
Not to get all Charles Staley on you, but my point was that soreness is not the goal; performance is the goal and sometimes soreness (DOMS) is a side effect.
I agree 100% that recovery is critical. The stimulus is only as good as your ability to recover, so I am not saying that it is not important.
I’ve been working on testing movements also to make sure they are good for me that day (and my client’s) body also and since doing this I don’t normally get very sore (clients do on occasion, mostly from a new movement or finding their glutes/hamstrings for the first time in a long time).
I also think that where you are sore may indicate the location of some inefficiencies. As your body becomes more efficient, you are able to recruit more motor units, thus more muscles and are “spreading the load” over a great surface so that stress (force/area) on an individual contracting fiber should be less and theoretically less chance of micro trauma. Thoughts??
Thanks again for the very insightful comments!
Mike N
Mike,
Great explanation of novelty/sma/inefficiency /efficiency related to muscle soreness. Exactly what I was trying to say…only better.
fF
mike and frankie,
I agree that soreness is not the goal but, hey, soreness happens; and pretty regularly if you are a heavily competitive athlete of any sort.
If one is training primarily for fitness then I agree soreness should be avoided for the most part; but, if you are a competitive powerlifter for example,handling supra maximal loads in the three lifts plus numerous other work you are going to be very sore very often.
Can’t be avoided if you want to be competitive.
Or a marathon runner training 120 miles a week. Or a full kontact karate competitorm etc.,etc.
So having as many modalities to help reduce that soreness and increase recovery is going to be extremely helpful.
I agree the stimilus is only as good as your ability to recover BUT your ability to recove can and should be inproved just as your training ability can be improved.
So that moves the loads you can handle up a notch. and so on.
Go to a powerlifting meet, or an olympic lifting competition or a gymnastics meet and ask and or see what the athletes are going through in terms of dealing with beat up bodies. It may not be the sanest thing to do but it is competitive sports and many are involved at high levels.
You may get more efficient, and “spread the microtrauma” over a greater area but when that microtrauma involves 500 plus lbs or more in very basic lifts with serious volume the recovery system of anyone is stressed to the max.
but there is no way to be an Elite powerlifter without lifting VERY heavy loads very often for many years.Or an Elite anything.
Again, for fitness training this is a different story and super heavy loading is not something that needs to happen. I certainly try NOT to get sore as it does slow my training( and mobility) down, but I am not lifting very heavy these days.
If I were doing 5×5 in the squat there is just no way around it!LOL.
Thanks for the info Rif.
I think we are saying the samething–DOMS is a side effect of training and not the main goal.
Thanks again for the info!
Mike N
Foam rollers have their place and should not be discarded. There is no one factor that is the answer – each individual needs the’re own unique combination of treatments and therapy.
Nervouse system jumpstarting is required to rebalance joints.
It is due to muscle inhibition that we develop weakness, poor joint stability and therefore reduced range of motion – all due to a decrease in afferent input to uscles from the nervous system.
Have a look at “muscle activation techniques” for the latest biomechanical / nervous system therapy.
Thanks fo the comments Brett.
I think there is a small place for the foam roller, but I would have athletes do joint mobility work first and if they still wanted to use the foam roller make sure it is not painful at all.
I agree that each person will need something different to fast track their results!
Yep, I have heard of MAT and spent quite awhile talking to MAT instructors and those that do it. I can work great, but I believe Z Health takes it one step further (but I am not certified in MAT).
Thanks for the comments!
Mike N
Wow…the first anti-foam roller article I’ve come across, so I’m not sure what to think. I read somewhere along the way that Mike Clark was one of the first to advocate their use some 5+ years ago.
You probably won’t like what I’m trying to market. It’s basically tennis ball therapy in a bag. Capable of Trigger Point release (if you believe in it) and massage.
I use a variety of 3.5 – 4″ high density EVA foam balls in a round lycra bag.
I came up with the idea when I was rehabing from open rotator cuff surgery a few years ago. Helped with the pain and range of motion.
It’s not quite perfected yet, the bag needs improvement, but you can pretty much use it for your entire body, but if functions on some parts better than others and is dependent on the support surface you choose.
It is adaptable and functions differently dependent on some variables the user controls:
1)the support surface such as the floor, a bed, bench, couch, chair, recliner, table, countertop, stacked on pillow, etc.
2) hardness of the support surface, soft carpet vs. tile floor.
3) number of balls within the bag and how many you of those you choose to engage with. number of contact points divided by body mass. You get the idea.
You can easily isolate on as little as one as you would with regular tennis ball therapy…but you have better control of it, but that’s not the idea of the bag anyway.
4) variety of balls in the bag
a) diameter ( I offer 5 sizes)
b) durometer ( I offer 4)
5) configuration of the bag
a) used flat
b) piled or clumped (bolster)
I’ve gotten great feedback from a few Physical Therapists and PT.
Simple concept and never marketed that I have found.
SO….I want yo to try one and let me know what you think. No charge, I guess I’ll even pay the shipping. Let me know.
[...] You are absolutely correct that I am not a fan of painful soft tissue work at all as wrote in my Get Off the Foam Roller post for the reasons outlined [...]
[...] I will probably known for a long time as the guy who dislikes foam rollers. The main points of the foam roller post [...]
[...] Get Off the Foam Roller [...]
eh… informative thread
Treating the symptom will only yield low level results (in the greater scheme of things).
If I have a tight ITB (and I do), there’s a good reason for that. In my case it’s because I’m over relying on my TFL for hip flexion because my illioposas is having a hard time engaging. So any amount of foam rolling that tight ITB isn’t ever going to do diddly squat for the primary hip flexors.
The sight of the pain is very rarely the cause of the pain.
Perfectly pent subject material , Really enjoyed examining .
Have you heard of Egoscue?
Yes I have
Mike N